Franklin's Garage to Stage
All things starting a musical band. From garage to stage getting your band going and beyond.
Interviews with musician's, Producers, club owners, recording artist's and others in field of recording or performing.
Discussions on pitfalls to avoid and what works from personal and other's experiences.
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Franklin's Garage to Stage
From Passion to Profession: Navigating Artist Management
Nael Atweh, founder of Grass-Fed Music, shares his journey and insights on artist management, the evolving music landscape, and the essential qualities for new artists. He emphasizes building trust, maintaining authenticity, and utilizing social media effectively to grow an audience.
• Nael's inspiring story from Toronto to success in the music industry
• Importance of a strong online following for artists
• Grass-Fed Music’s unique management approach centered on trust
• Strategies for effective social media usage to promote music
• Insights on the future of rock music and genre evolution
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Hi, my name's Rob Wardrums, franklin. Welcome to Franklin's Garage to Stage and Beyond podcast. My co-host is Dana Thunderbase Franklin. Hey, dana, we got a special guest today. You want to go ahead and introduce this guy for us, please.
Dana Franklin:I would love to With us. Today, we have the privilege of having the founder and CEO of Grass-Fed Music, Niall Atway. How are you doing, sir?
Nael Atweh:Good, good, Wonderful. Thank you for having me guys Excited to be on. I've only done a few podcasts, so any opportunity to talk and hear myself talk, I'm on board.
Rob Franklin:Hey, we appreciate it. I really do. So, basically, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, niall?
Nael Atweh:Yeah, absolutely yeah. So I'm originally from Toronto, canada. I'm 40 years old. I've been doing music since I was around 26. I came up under a very successful songwriter producer named Nasri Atway, who's my big brother, and you know he started as an artist, a dancer, then moved to New York, had some success there, then moved to LA, and you know he's created some incredible hits as a songwriter for everyone, from Chris Brown to Justin Bieber to Shakira.
Rob Franklin:Oh, wow.
Nael Atweh:To Lana Del Rey, to New Kids on the Block, to then starting his own band called Magic. They had a big hit called Rude why you gotta be so rude. Everyone knows that song. And then I started in the business, you know, yeah, just managing producers, managing writers, managing artists, and really, you know, got into this business for a love of music. I just didn't know I could make it a career.
Rob Franklin:Very good. So can you tell us a little bit more about like GrassFit Music and what and what your company is all about?
Nael Atweh:Yeah, absolutely so. Grassfit Music is your standard management company. We manage writers, artists, producers, mixing engineers. Again, started in Toronto representing some upcoming producers and writers. My goal was to help them get major placements. So songs with artists who were signed to major labels. This is like 14 years ago Helped people get deals, helped people get placements and then from there started developing artists instead of just the producers and the writers. Took on some producers and the writers, Took on some producers and writers that did well. Then took on artists that did well.
Nael Atweh:Started developing an artist named Sabrina Claudio almost 10 years ago. It's really what I cut my teeth on. She broke out as one of the biggest R&B, progressive R&B, soul singers in the world. You know we've had countless Grammys as a management company, sold out tours, done some incredible things with international artists. We're also known for managing DJs. We manage one of the biggest DJs named DJ Habi Beats, who is basically an Arab-American DJ that mixes like Arabic music, English music, African music, Brazilian music. We also manage Afro House DJs, producers, songwriters. So very unique management company. It's run by me and my wife, Elise Hayek, and we have an incredible head of A&R named Natalie. So we're a very small company but mighty, Always signing new things, always on the cusp of culture, but we are really focused on developing and servicing our current clients nice.
Rob Franklin:Okay, I got a question for you do you actually have a recording studio on site or do you like work, or do you like have a a recording studio you basically work with? How's that work?
Nael Atweh:yeah, absolutely so. Grass fed, as a management company, doesn't own a recording studio but, for example, our our big songwriter nazri. He has a wonderful spot in van nuys and then he has another spot that's a built adu outside of his house. So we have multiple studios with most of our producers. Grass Fed actually operates from our home. We are a mom and pop company. We're in Ventura County but, you know, probably three or four days a week we're in West LA, but most of our producers and writers and artists have access to studios engineers, you know it's part of the community in LA. Everybody's helping each other, everybody is offering their spaces for each other, something that's a big part of why the city is so great for early development and growth. But GrassVet has been fortunate to always have a place of work, always have a place to create, and we pride ourselves on trying to help others find a place to work very cool dana.
Rob Franklin:What kind of questions you have for him yeah, um.
Dana Franklin:So you know, what exactly do you look for in a band? I mean, do you look for, you know, personality, looks, attitude, or is it basically mainly just like the sound of the band? And is there certain genres that you work with?
Nael Atweh:yeah, I mean we're open to everything genre-wise. What we're probably more known for at Grassbed is like R&B, pop, a singer-songwriter. So R&B is like your typical usher or your singer-songwriter is like your Ed Sheeran, or your pop is your Taylor Swift. Nowadays, most labels, most managers are looking to see that you have a following. It's kind of an unfortunate but fortunate research tool that you have to pay attention to. You want to see that the artist has a following, or, if they don't have a following, they're very active. They're trying to build a following, and the reason for that is no matter how talented somebody is, things just fall on deaf ears if you don't have the people to listen to it.
Nael Atweh:So I usually try to find people that I'm in love with. I don't care if they're huge on Instagram or TikTok or big on YouTube or already do shows or have already done the Warped Tour or whatever it may be. I just need to fall in love with them. I need to feel like I can go to bed with them. I need to feel like I need to think about them all the time. I can't get them off my mind. I want to help them. I don't care how much money they make me because I believe in the music, I believe in the story, I believe in the artist.
Nael Atweh:But what happens quickly is that belief can run dry if the artist is not willing to put in the work. Yes, you believe in their songs, yes, you believe in their vision, but, for whatever reason, this artist doesn't feel like they need to put in the work. They don't need to post, they don't need to create a podcast, they don't need to be online, they don't need to make content. They think that they're past that or they're stuck in the old school business. You know the rock and roll days where there was only a few acts that got through and if you didn't know someone, you didn't get through, and if you didn't have budget for radio, you didn't get through, and if you weren't on tour, nobody paid attention to you. But now we live in a time where you could be at home and you could be making videos and you could become a star because people resonate with it.
Nael Atweh:So for me and the whole company, our job is to find people that makes us feel something that we believe in, that we trust. They have our trust, they believe our strategies. They don't think that we're out to take advantage of them. They want to work with us. They want to build their open suggestions. That's kind of where we make decisions. But sometimes you've got to look at an artist's following and say, hey, wow, got a million followers on tiktok. You haven't really broken on spotify. Your music's not really taking off yet, but you have the fan base. Let us help you find the best music possible very cool.
Rob Franklin:I love that at level of dedication I can tell that's like in your voice for for the bands that you work with, that is that is so cool thank you yeah, we can hear the past.
Dana Franklin:The passion comes through just by listening to you.
Nael Atweh:Thank you, I'm trying I listen to tony robbins every morning before I start my day I'm trying to help people because I myself am like tormented by the music business, tormented by you know, one of the things Tony Robbins said today is like what's one thing that you wish was better? And I always say my career and it's like from the outside people would say wait now. You are successful, you do well, you obviously sell out tours, you travel, but I'd always say that I'm still missing that credibility I feel I deserve. I'm still missing that award, whether literally or emotionally, that I feel I deserve.
Nael Atweh:There's still that feeling that if I stop, things will fall apart, you know. So that's kind of the challenge of being in this music business is you're always feeling like you haven't done enough. So getting to that balance is really, really difficult and you have to have a really strong state of mind every day, otherwise the smallest thing will just tip you off and then you're right back to feeling down on yourself. And I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm not a victim of it or I don't compare myself to others or I don't have moments of weakness, but if I don't just double down on like no, stay positive, stay strong, believe in the music. There has to be that. We have to believe that the ideas will work.
Nael Atweh:It can't just be who you know or the business, or the relationships, or how much money you spent. There has to be the idea that good ideas will still work. And this is why the greatest bands you know, from U2 to you know, queen, are still, you know, some of the greatest touring acts of all time, because good is good and it stays good for a very long time. And so trying to get there in this day and age is difficult and you have to have a really strong mindset to um deal with the amount of failure that you will see in a day, as any independent artist deals with right now?
Rob Franklin:uh, do you? Um, how do you do like have an a and r person on staff that actually goes out and looks for new acts, or are you pretty much relying on acts coming to you? How does that work?
Nael Atweh:Great question. So, yeah, traditional A&R hasn't really gone away. I'd say across the music business there are A&R personalities that are still doing what they would have done back in the day. Just now the tools are different. We have Instagram, tiktok, facebook, spotify, youtube. You can easily message 20, 30 artists in a day that you discovered and then from there you figure out who's good At GrassFed, one of our well, we're only a team of three and Natalie.
Nael Atweh:She runs A&R for GrassFed. She's young, she has great taste in music and so she's always putting me on to something. Yo, check out this artist, check out this writer. My friend's working with this person, but a lot of it is word of mouth. For example, our biggest client, sabrina Claudio, came to me because, almost 10 years ago, a friend of hers said you should email this guy now if you're looking for a manager, and then she emailed me, plus other managers, and then I responded.
Nael Atweh:Or, for example, our client, dj Habby Beats. He was someone that was introduced to me by a friend who's not in music and he's like yo, come to a party my birthday party and meet this DJ, and I was like I've never worked with DJs, but I fell in love with his story and his culture. So a lot of times it's like this kind of unexplainable force that happens that you're not planning and you then just go with your gut instinct. And then a lot of times you went with your gut instinct, or you took advice from an A&R, or you took a shot on something that you saw online, and it doesn't work out because your personalities clash. So there's no one way of discovering talent. We pride ourselves at GrassFed on.
Rob Franklin:We lost you there for a minute. You still there. I hate.
Nael Atweh:Sorry about that, that's okay. I would say we pride ourselves on. Grassfed is trying to only discover people that we don't hate, that we can enjoy working with, but that itself is a challenge. So you just got to trust your team, your staff, your friends that they'll send you good things. And then sometimes you take shots on things that nobody was looking at. Like I'm working with a Colombian artist that nobody is realizing is in front of them and I'm trying to, like, spark something new from this artist, but it's a shot in the dark.
Rob Franklin:Okay.
Dana Franklin:So, as a manager, you know this podcast that we do is generated towards, you know, musicians starting out or getting bands going, and maybe some that have been on the road a little bit that may or may not have ever had a manager. What are the roles of a manager and what could they expect from a company like yours if you're managing them?
Nael Atweh:Yeah, great question. So it depends on the type of manager. Some managers are hands-off. Hey, artist, tell me when you need something and I'll manage it. Tell me when you have a deal come through and I'll manage it. Oh, when you have a show come through, I'll manage it.
Nael Atweh:At GrassFed, we do everything, we don't wait, we are hands-on. So if we're working with a band, let's just say we're going to do everything, from find them their band members, if they need it, to finding them their booking agent. So CEA, wme, william Morris, uta, finding them their lawyer, finding them their business manager. Reaching out to, if they need it, songwriters, producers, mixing engineers, studio time, you know, going after brand opportunities, coming up with social media plans, managing their schedule, staying on top of them every day, you know, asking questions, reaching out to other fellow artists and creatives.
Nael Atweh:Now, every artist is different. There are some artists that don't want that. They want management to more or less handle just deals and business opportunities and not be day-to-day, because they themselves kind of came up under social media instead of coming up under doing shows and touring. So they're used to handling a ton of administrative or social media instead of coming up under, you know, doing shows and touring. So they're used to handling a ton of administrative or social media details.
Nael Atweh:A lot of times what managers are doing is just managing incoming opportunities. Oh, someone's reaching out for a show, someone's reaching out to approve publishing on a song, or to figure out what the credit is for the producer, or to you know, scream at you whatever it is. But a manager's job is to put out what the credit is for the producer or to you know, scream at you whatever it is. But a manager's job is to put out fires and technically start them. You know, so like that's what a good manager does. We put out fires to maintain, but we start them so that we can put them out. You know it's kind of a vicious cycle, but a good manager to me is an extension of the artist's business. It's less a management but more of a partnership, and that's how you build trust to the point where, even if you, for example, want to leave music and start a real estate company, you would bring your manager with you. If you wanted to start a publishing company, you'd have your manager run that for you. If you wanted to start a label, you'd have your manager run that for you. You want to start a merchandise company.
Nael Atweh:So all the greatest success stories between artists and management is when they're able to flourish beyond just music and grow together. Because music is technically limiting in the sense of money. You could only make so much, like even the biggest could only make so much in comparison to someone who owns a tech startup. It startup, right, it's like you know Taylor Swift. Yeah, it makes half a billion dollars, but one CEO at one tech startup makes that every month, right. So it's like to do music is because you have a passion for it, and if it's for money, then you and your manager can grow that. So it's limitless what a great manager could do. I grasp that we really, really focus on covering everything and never leaving the client feeling like I can't go to them for that because they don't do that. No, we do it, and if we don't, we'll figure it out.
Rob Franklin:Wow, I love that passion and the idea. So encompassing of every all the needs of an artist. That is just, that's outstanding. So at what point should let's just say you're a new band, you've got a good following, you've got some recordings out there At what point should you contact a company like yours Anytime? Really, Okay, Me.
Nael Atweh:I tell artists contact me. The second you have an idea? The second you feel ready. The second you need a manager. Don't be shy, reach out, send messages. A lot of people will say, oh, don't reach out to managers, they'll find you. That's BS. All the greatest managers, their clients, came to them either via a friend, or that client had the guts to reach out. My biggest client reached out to me. You know, my next biggest client came from a friend. I couldn't. It's impossible for me to be everywhere at all times.
Nael Atweh:I mean there's days where I'll sit on my laptop for three, four hours and all I'm doing is listening to the newest music that dropped on Spotify. Spotify has a thing called New Music Friday and it comes out Thursday at basically midnight worldwide time. So I will be at 9 pm on a Friday listening to every new artist because I'm like, ok, maybe I can find something that I'm really excited about. Then I'll reach out to them nine times out of 10. They already have a manager. So I always tell artists if you feel you need a manager, you feel you have talent, don't be shy. If you feel you need a manager, you feel you have talent, don't be shy. Managers like me who are, you know, we're doing amazing, but there's bigger managers than me. Those bigger managers will respond to you. So someone like me will always respond. But don't be surprised when you go and reach out to a huge manager and you see that he responds back because they are thirsty for those opportunities. So I tell artists when you feel you have something, reach out.
Nael Atweh:But there's a lot of mistakes that artists will make where they will reach out because they say, oh, I can't do any more without a manager. That's when you won't find a manager, when you're like oh, there's no way I'm going to be able to get to that label without a manager, there's no way I'm going to be able to get to a Spotify playlist without a manager. Or I'm not putting out these songs until I have a manager. Once you start putting up all those walls, no manager will be interested in you. So you want a manager because you're just like I don't want to take on this work. I want to trust someone to take it on for me and I want to make them look good as an artist. That's what managers are looking for Someone who wants to make them look good. So I don't care how early it is in your career, you want to make me look good and I want to make you a ton of money. Then we'll have a great relationship.
Nael Atweh:But, if your focus is what are you bringing to the table for me, Niall, then we'll have a terrible relationship.
Nael Atweh:So what you're basically saying is be proactive and and and jump in there early. Oh yeah, man, I mean nothing better than jumping in early because you build trust with them. Even if you make mistakes, they trust you. It's like someone great said this to me that how people act the first time you meet them is pretty much who they are. So if you meet someone for the first time and they're a liar and they lie all the time, and then, like you know, two weeks later they try to act, like you know, they're all nice and sweet. Likely they're going to always come back to lying to you because that's just who they are. Or if someone meets you for the first time and they're sweet and then they have a bad day three weeks later, you know what. At their core they're a good person. They just made a mistake. So a lot of times that first impression is very important. You get an idea of someone and you get a feeling for them.
Nael Atweh:One thing I always look for is trust. As, second, an artist doesn't trust me. I can't work with them. I can't even sleep at night because I'm so upset that they don't trust me. And I can't believe that I'm working for free. Basically, I've made no money from you. I believe in you, yet you still don't trust me. I can't work with you, no matter how much value you think you're worth or how much I'm going to lose out.
Nael Atweh:Thank God I've never, ever, actually lost out on an artist that suddenly didn't trust me. They ended up suffering and I was right that they should have trusted me, or trusted the future me or the future manager like me. So trust is everything. I don't care about any other aspect of it. You just have to have trust for that person who's working for you, because it's kind of delusional to think that a person working off commission can just guarantee results. Like you're already starting off in a very weird place. Like you should just let them do their thing and and and and hope for the best results. And when things don't work, is it the manager's fault or the music's fault?
Nael Atweh:and the best artists believe it's the music fault and the ones who struggle believe it's the manager's fault or the label's fault yeah, and so you got to decide what side of the story you're going to be on, if you're going to be an artist in this day and age.
Rob Franklin:Wow love your attitude.
Dana Franklin:So talking about cost and I just heard you throw out commission is that how you are based as far as the money from it? Are you commissioned based from what the artist might make, or is there a fee up front? How does that work?
Nael Atweh:No, we're commissioned. Only, we do run a small consulting division at GrassFed where we consult for like five artists a month. That's totally separate. It's not something we promote, it's something we've been doing for a very long time and those are just consulting. Artists hire us, we consult for them.
Nael Atweh:But yes, management business is a 20% standard commission. It could be 15%, it depends. If you're like a really big client, I'd be happy to take a lesser percentage. I'd be happy to take a 5% if I believe in you and I feel that there's a story to be told. I don't ever take on clients because of money I'm willing to lose because I believe in them. But the standard is 20%. In the US it's like 20% off gross. You make a dollar, they make 20%. You make $100, they make 20%. But I'm also the type of manager that stands behind my clients. If my client's like, hey, now I'm struggling this month, do you mind just not taking commissions for two months, I'm like, yeah, no problem, what do you need? You know we've had clients.
Nael Atweh:One of my clients in the UK named Ethan. When I met him he, you know, was having a couple you know financial issues. So I made it my focus to get him out of those financial issues. I didn't worry about commissions or anything like that. I worried about him paying his bills, because I knew if he couldn't pay his bills, there's no way he's going to write great songs or he might, but they might come through struggle, or he's going to be worrying about the wrong things, and so it was very important for me to get him out of that situation. So our commissions don't mean anything unless you're making money, obviously. So really the work is what dictates the future income, and I've always noticed, when you get artists out of their financial issues, they're so happy to pay you. If anything.
Rob Franklin:They want you to take on more responsibility, because they realize the value it brings to them, right, cool, okay, so say you're a brand-new band but you're not in, like say us, for instance, you're not located in the LA area. Do you guys actually offer with booking opportunities as well in your management portfolio?
Nael Atweh:Managers don't do bookings. Managers will facilitate finding you a booking agent. I'm almost sure there's like a law in California where managers can't book shows. We can go and, for example, reach out to a festival, reach out to a buyer, but we can't go and hit up promoters and start booking shows for our artists. Artists can do that, they can hit up promoters directly themselves.
Nael Atweh:But normally there's important pillars for any artist. Let's say a band, the number one pillar. When I say a band, a band, meaning, like you know, there's more than one member. They're not a pop artist. You know. The first, most important pillar is okay, can we get you an agent?
Nael Atweh:A lot of times with bands you find them an independent agent, an upcoming agent, a local agent. Now they're doing local shows and then you're growing and you become then a household band and now you're getting booked and you're getting on festivals, whereas, like a pop artist, let's say, you're not thinking about putting them on the road right away. You're not thinking about getting them a booking agent. You got to get them a following first, you got to get them a fan base or you got to get them great songs.
Nael Atweh:See, bands have different ways of entering the music business. They can be unknown but have done 150 shows where there's no such thing as a pop artist who's unknown, who's done 150 shows. It's very rare, it's too expensive, it's too difficult and it's not really rewarding the way just being online is. So if I'm going to take on an act or a band or a singer, you know I'm always going to do my due diligence in the sense of setting up their main pillars of success. So pillar one is booking agent, pillar two, lawyer. Pillar three, business manager. Pillar four, label. And if we can get those happening for my relationships, amazing. But if not, that means we need to build a following so that when I go back around they're excited to work with that client.
Rob Franklin:And what's your typical process for social media? Obviously it's social media, but do you have a formula you guys follow to develop followings for new artists?
Nael Atweh:We don't have a formula, but we try to tell artists to be genuine. That's the most important, the reason why anything can do well. You guys are starting a new podcast. It has 2,500 downloads. That's amazing. It's because you're just talking about ideas that people resonate with and there's so much room for new ideas. There's so much room for podcasts. Who would have thought, in a day and age of TikTok, social media, micro content, short form content, that there'd be people listening to, for example, joe Rogan or Call Her Daddy, where it's three-hour podcasts, two-hour podcasts?
Nael Atweh:And people are not bored, they're enjoying it. So there's a form of expression that people really want. For me, I wish we knew how to gamify social media in the sense of like can we do it over and over again? There's plenty of companies who do, but they always fall short when it comes to the music. That's one thing you can't trick. No matter what you do. You cannot trick people to say this song is a hit, this song isn't. When ACDC would put out an album, everyone knew there would be four solid songs, but there wouldn't be 12 hits.
Nael Atweh:It's impossible, right? So we're in the same world now where you know social media is important. If you're willing to post multiple times a day three to four times a day then you will see better results. But that doesn't mean you'll have better ideas. That doesn't mean the music will be better, but you might have a fan base. So I always tell artists just start from an organic place. What's important to you? What do people not know about you? A simple thing I tell artists do is write your name on a piece of paper. Write as many things that people don't know about you as possible good, bad, ugly, whatever they are and then go look at your socials, go listen to your music. Show me that any of that is there and if it's not, you know where to start. You know you're not being vulnerable enough and we don't want to accept it.
Nael Atweh:But the reason why big artists are big is because they are unapologetically themselves and and that's why we see them. You don't see the same artists over and over again. You don't see 10 taylor swifts. There's only one, because people won't enjoy the ninth, eighth, the seventh, the sixth that are trying to be like her. They want something different. People want, don't they? They have their drake, but then some people want their kendrick Lamar, and it's because both of them are unapologetically themselves and they figured out how to now make that public. It's like you guys are brothers, but you're different, right? And how do you? If you started acting like each other, people wouldn't know who's who. But the more you act like yourselves, the more they can appreciate Robert, the more they can appreciate Dana, the more they can appreciate who you are.
Nael Atweh:So being unapologetic, being yourself, is the key to growing online, but you also have to be consistent. So that's the hard part. Most artists are themselves, but they refuse to post every day, they refuse to be active, they refuse to put themselves out there, they refuse to be vulnerable or to be corny, or to be cringe, or to do something that's out of their comfort zone. And then they hit a wall and they're like why isn't anybody seeing me? I'm like well, you want them to see you through this very, very specific lens instead of allowing them to choose what lens works for them. And so this is how we have new artists every year popping up and become phenomenons or become cultural sensations, where they're bands, singers, rappers, international artists, bilingual artists, and it's because of that.
Nael Atweh:Oh, that's new. Oh my God, I've never seen that before. I love that. I love that. I haven't seen that before. I resonate with that now, and if suddenly that thing stops feeding you, then you won't resonate with it anymore. And that's how simple we are. It's not that complicated, but you do have to find the truth online but then also combat it with consistency. Consistency is where most people fail. That's where, most of the time, you don't see results when there's zero consistency.
Rob Franklin:Wow so much great advice. Man, it's really a pleasure speaking to you. You've got so much insightful information that I'm really appreciating this, and I'm sure our listeners will as well. Dana, what other questions do you have for Niall?
Dana Franklin:Well, I would like to know. There's always a moment in everybody's career where they're like the light bulb goes on or it's like an aha. Do you have a moment that something just clicked and you and you knew that? Hey, this is what I want to do, this, this is who I am good question I love that question.
Nael Atweh:Um, I absolutely do so. I always knew at a young age I I grew up in toronto, canada. My brother is a very successful songwriter producer. I remember in we went back home to Nazareth and we went to go see our family and my brother was making music. He was writing songs on yellow paper, writing different lyrics out, and I was like, oh, I want to write lyrics too, and I started writing with him, but then within five seconds my attention span went away. And then a year passed and he's still doing it. Two year passed, he's still doing it. Two year past, he's still doing it. Now he's taking dance classes. Now he's taking voice lessons. Now he's doing modeling.
Nael Atweh:Now he's doing wow, my brother's 44, so you know he's cut from the cloth of before social media, before spotify, before anything. You know he was getting headshots done. He got scammed by people and but we grew up always loving pop music.
Nael Atweh:We were the arab kids that would listen to backstreet boys and sing and you could on the block we were kids, but I was also the kid that was getting into a fight and then come home all bloody and I'd start singing backstreet boys and my brothers, I was a very bizarre kid. So I always had this feeling that I was meant to be a part of entertainment, meant to be a part of music, but I just didn't have the guts to do it. I didn't have the stamina or the belief in myself that it was real. I just always thought it was a pipe dream and like, come on, stop. Like go get a job, go sell you know whatever you can sell. Go a job, go sell whatever you can sell, go make money. And I did that for a long time.
Nael Atweh:And when I was around 24, 25, I kept seeing my brother succeeding and I kept seeing him grow and he was always defying everyone. Everyone doubted him, everyone told him he wouldn't be a great artist, everyone told him to give up on music. He didn't have friends the way I did. He was kind of bullied by people who didn't believe in him and he just steadfast, just ten toes down, refused to give up. And so when I saw him having his first moment, which was basically reviving the group New Kids on the Block and they decided to come back as a group because of his music and he produced their whole album for them. I said, hey, there's an opportunity here, I can do this. I don't need to be scared of entertainment and I've spent my whole life understanding pop culture, music, songwriting, movies, tv shows. I mean still to this day I'm listening to multiple albums in a day and watching a movie every night before I go to bed, or the latest TV show I don't miss a beat. And so I realized that that was beneficial to music.
Nael Atweh:And then, growing up as, like a tough kid, I had a tough dad, I had very tough friends, I was just a leader automatically. When I met these very you know kudos to them, but insecure producers, insecure artists and musicians and scared people, and they just saw that I was confident and fearless and willing to scream at people and get into fights but also be their champion. So I kind of fell into the lap of being a manager by servicing people who I felt needed help and I just said what do you need? And then they told me what they needed and I went after it for them and then that resulted in them trusting me. So I really got into this business from a place of fear, but I always reminded myself when I was a kid, I used to watch.
Nael Atweh:I know this sounds so corny, but I used to watch Backstreet Boys and NSYNC and I'd watch their VH1 specials and I would cry and I'd be like, oh man, why can't that be me? Why can't that be behind stage with these guys? Why can't that be doing these things? I would dream to just high five them as they walk off stage, because we did this thing together. And then you know, 15 years later, I did that exact thing. I sold out, I developed a boy band, sold out the Roxy for three nights in a row in Los Angeles and I made sure that my videographer filmed me high-fiving every one of them as they walked off stage.
Rob Franklin:Very cool.
Nael Atweh:And it's the same thing with Coachella. You know, I wanted to go to Coachella. I couldn't get a ticket. I begged everyone. Years of begging people. I felt down on myself. I couldn't get a ticket to Coachella. So I said I'll never ask for a ticket again until I'm on the stage with my artist. And then the next year we were on the main stage with my artist and I never had to ask for a ticket again because we performed that day.
Nael Atweh:So you know, my entire story is like I did what I was scared of. I kept doing what I was scared of Every day. I got to do what I was scared of every day. I got to do what I was scared of man, the amount of demons I have to deal with in a day internally to then be able to be a force for everyone, be positive for everyone. That's in itself a full-on mental exercise. But the fact that I get to make money from music and from art is insane. So if there's some months or years that I make a little less, but I'm still doing what I love, I'm all for it, because I know, you know, that 10,000 or I'd say nowadays 20,000 hours was worth every, every, every, every moment, every hour, every minute, every second.
Rob Franklin:Wow, I love that story and that drive you have. That's impressive, it really is.
Dana Franklin:Yeah, you know that is. You know. I mean a lot of people are going to, you know, listen to this podcast and get inspired by this. What would they need to do? What kind of a quality demo would they need to do to submit to a company like yours to get interest?
Nael Atweh:I mean, what kind of quality does it need to be? Guys, if anyone is actually listening to me, or listening or resonating with what I'm saying, do not care, I do not care about any of those things. You have a song idea, a voice note, a scratchy thing? You put it on a freaking cassette tape for some reason. Send it to me. Just just listen to your heart, don't listen to your you know strategic brain that you think I need a perfect song to fall in love with it.
Nael Atweh:Never one of my biggest artists. Her first album was only on soundcloud, before it ever was on apple and spotify, and I had, and the whole industry was chasing her. So it's nothing. Nobody cares about those things. It's just that what artists do when they don't want to post, when they don't want to post, when they don't want to create content, when they don't want to be relevant, they just want to keep like picking at the same thing that they don't need to pick at. Oh, it's not mixed, oh, it's not. The amount of times artists will send me a song and tell me to go listen to it in my car. I won't. I never will listen to them. I say you're trying to trick me to like your song I don't need big speakers to like your song.
Nael Atweh:If I don't like it on my phone or on my laptop, it's not a good song.
Nael Atweh:Right, right I don't need big speakers to tell me something is good. That's crazy talk, you know, and so there isn't any criteria when it comes to me in particular, I am always responding. A hundred artists could DM me after this podcast and I will listen to all hundred of them. I will go through every one of them. I don't need to message them back if I don't like it per se, um, and I would think that's like a sign for the artist to keep working. But also, if that artist wants to hit me a hundred more times, I'll respond a hundred more times.
Nael Atweh:So do not limit yourself to think that songs need to be mixed, mastered, perfect demos. You could do them on voice note, you could do them on your phone, I don't care. There are many artists who have 10 million monthly listeners that recorded everything on their phone, many, many of them. So there isn't any rules anymore. It goes back to what I said. Do you believe in something? Are you being vulnerable? Are you being consistent? Keep trying until it works. Oh, it didn't work, it's the music's fault. Go back to the music, keep trying, keep trying.
Nael Atweh:And then, of course, mixing, mastering. These are all parts of finishing a song, but it doesn't define a song. I've seen many albums come out that weren't mixed. No mix Demo. They put it out and it does really well. So there's no rules, it's just good ideas. Good is good, bad is bad. Period, no one can tell me that a mix will make a song better. It will make the song better in the literal sense, but it won't make the melody, the lyrics, better. Nothing will change that song. Right? Bohemian Rhapsody could be remixed a thousand times and it would be better to the ears of an engineer, but it would never change the melodic structure of the song.
Rob Franklin:That makes it one of the greatest songs in history. Okay, cool. What's your opinion as far as the direction of music? My brother and myself we're rock musicians. We're diehard rock musicians. We write a lot of good material, but rock seems to be kind of in the background nowadays. Do you feel like history is going to repeat itself and it's going to have a resurgence in the future?
Nael Atweh:I think it has and it is. I think, the way the media works is that you only see the most popular things. But there are more bands touring than ever before. There are more rock bands touring than ever before. Now the genre of rock has adjusted. Some would say 1975 is a rock band right.
Nael Atweh:They're like a UK kind of pop rock band. You know, some would say Harry Styles is a rock star because he has like a 20-piece band when he does a show. So the evolution of a rock star has changed. But I'd say the genre of rock like, let's say specifically rock, like you know, that is more instrument-based and you know it's not. Like you know, know these very specific hip-hop or urban or or pop drums is doing extremely well and growing extremely fast because their playlists have just become a beacon of like catalog that is still relevant. And so what's happening at spotify or apple or title or youtube? There are people who are dedicating to growing these genres and, yes, rock is one of the smaller ones, but it hasn't even, in my opinion, slowed down remotely on the road. There are acts doing, you know, like X Ambassadors or Imagine Dragons. People would say Imagine Dragons is a rock band right.
Nael Atweh:But it's because the songs are melodic and poppy. You don't put it in that category. So rock has just transitioned to be more like clean and more pop friendly, and then you kind of have to just do a lot of digging to find the ones that maybe feel nostalgic or feel like a little bit you know more, not what you're used to Like. For example, there's a solo artist named Grandson. You know he's a good friend of mine and I'd say to me he's a rock star. You know like the way he performs and does his shows. He's what you'd expect from like Beastie Boys back in the day and yes, they were like a hip-hop act, but they were also rock stars. So it it just depends on you know the style. But I think there's room for good ideas, no matter what.
Nael Atweh:I think the state of the music business is in an amazing place. Just because I believe in music and I don't believe in the business, so I nothing will ever like unless somehow AI takes over, like the job of an artist, meaning the one who's on stage, the one who's behind camera. I think we're in a good place and we could only be in a better place and you can easily carve out what works for you and sustain a whole career without having to worry about what doesn't work for you. If you're like, hey, I'm rock specific or I'm only catering to a certain age group, trust me, that age group is out there for you and you can find them. You can put in the work and find them. I had a thought the other day that I could sign a 75-year-old man who can sing and make him into a 75-year-old version of Ed Sheeran. Why not, If the ideas are?
Nael Atweh:good if the story is there, people resonate with it. Guess what? On my TikTok, every other week I find a man, a senior citizen, who's doing covers and they have like 2 million views and now they have a career. So there's. So I so I believe in the state. I believe the state of music is in a fantastic place. Of course, there's just a lot of satire. There's a lot of music being put out. There's 150,000, they say 150,000 releases on Spotify a day, but somehow our community of managers let's say 500 managers in the music business we still are squeezing out the relevant ones. So I think the state of rock, the state of all genres are as healthy as the artist who's creating and decides them to be wow, okay, cool.
Rob Franklin:So basically, like you said earlier, if it's good, it's good. You know, if it's good, it's good, people are going to relate to it.
Nael Atweh:So so I yeah, I, I agree 100, but the difference is now is it can be good and no one hears it yeah so you have to choose as an artist. What are you going to do about that? Right, that's an open-ended assignment. Hey, what are you going to do about it? I know the music is good.
Nael Atweh:Well that's when we come to somebody like you, right, but then a lot of times, what those artists will do is go, I don't know. Can you get a label to sign me? Can you get me on a playlist? And I'm like, no, I can't. You have a thousand followers like. You need to get these fans seeing you right now.
Nael Atweh:So we had a drummer that we worked with and she was an amazing drummer. So we we got her to shoot drumming videos four times a week, but she only did her original songs and then from there, people. But she blew up and all the comments were people in their 40s and 50s going wow, bringing back old school drumming and rock videos and rock music. I love this. And she was able to like find that audience. Now she still has the job of creating hits and getting past this social media stage, but now. But she has her foot in the door.
Nael Atweh:So you know that that part is where it could be daunting, where it could be really difficult on any artist to be like well, we all agree this music's amazing, but no one is agreeing online. I don't have a fan base. It's not moving the needle. So you have a choice to say I'm going to put up 50 videos in the next two weeks on tiktok and instagram to get people to discover it, or I'm going to go back to the drawing board and make even better music, but nothing changes when it comes to how to get people to see it. So that's the challenge nowadays is that you might be as good as that rock group 20 years ago that all they needed to do was get one phone call with an anr and boom, they have a business um now you have to, like you know, find those millions of anrs meeting your fans online that discover you, to then get an an article.
Nael Atweh:Wait, I see people like you. I like you too. Let's do a deal, you know, and let's try to make your music, you know, come to fruition. So it's a challenge, but it's. It's a worthy challenge if you're in it for the right reasons.
Rob Franklin:What would be a realist oh go ahead Dana.
Dana Franklin:I was going to say. It sounds like that old adage is like you miss every shot you don't take. I mean, you've got to put yourself out there to get hurt period.
Nael Atweh:Facts 100%, and there are artists who are fortunate. They didn't have to do too much. But we only see the success stories. We don't see the losses. Imagine labels and management companies just posted hey guys just want to let everyone know how many failed artists we had this week, how many failed artists we had this year. So all we see is the losses and I do think there's value to seeing the failures, to seeing the things that don't do well, so artists can remind themselves that labels are only showing you what worked, not what didn't. So it's so easy to get caught up in what everyone else is doing, but you're realizing that that label also had 900 other things that didn't do well. That day, you know, but that's not. Their job was to show you that. It's not my job. The amount of rejections I get as a manager every week oh my god, if I were to, I thought it would.
Nael Atweh:The amount of rejections I get as a manager in a week. Oh my God. I thought it would be funny to do an Instagram post, you know, once a week, of like the 20 failed emails this week, you know. But it's like people just don't do that because no one's interested in that. Oh, no one responded to you, or you know, they just want to see the big things and then compare themselves to those Instead of saying bet you, the label's got like 50 artists that did absolutely nothing.
Nael Atweh:I can only imagine how difficult it is for them. I should be grateful that I still have a career. I still pay my bills. I just need to beat the greatest thing I've ever made, and when artists accept that they usually get past it I've ever made, and when artists accept that they usually get past it. But when artists don't think they need to beat what they've made and they think the industry is the issue, that's when they don't get results. So you know that obsession over your vision, over the music, over making a better and over promoting it, that's the key to growing in this game. It's not hoping that gatekeepers or myself or you know your podcast or gives them that boost they need, you're going to always fall flat.
Rob Franklin:Okay. So, speaking of which, what would be a realistic expectation if you have, say, great material you think you've put out there on all the social medias? What would be a realistic expectation for, like the amount of hits you should get on it, in your opinion?
Nael Atweh:uh, that's a tough one, you know. Listen, I've seen follow people who have 2 000 followers and their song has 3 million streams. So something will just happen online where a tiktok sound will take off, an instagram sound will take off. You end up on a meme page. Someone reposted you, someone did a review, someone did a podcast and people are going to it. I mean, let's hope this podcast comes out and goes viral and people are fascinated by the story and from there suddenly I become more of a popular person from one thing that I said. So there's so many versions of like scalability or you know, setting goals to try to hit them. Normally in the music business we never like set. Okay, we need to get 100,000 followers.
Nael Atweh:We need to do a million streams, because it's like impossible to like guarantee that. But a lot of artists will set those goals for themselves. They'll be like I want to get verified, I want to have a million followers, I want to have, you know, 10,000 monthly listeners, and they usually know that the only way to get there is through consistent posting Sometimes. Okay, let's get you on New Music Friday, which is like what Spotify offers as like an editorial support system. Hey, we have employees that basically look over these thousand plus playlists that we can curate and put personally artists that we think would make sense for those playlists. Then Spotify has a thing called algorithmic support where, based off of your algorithm, you end up in these other playlists that then give you support. And then there's people who come to your page and follow you and save your songs or playlist you. So there's many ways to like activate that growth. It's just kind of it's pretty difficult to like scale.
Nael Atweh:Okay, could you run ads? That might work. Could you put out acoustic versions of the songs you put out? That might work. Could you remaster songs? Could you you, you know spend money on marketing or billboards? There's so many ways to get it, but we try our best not to set like specific follower goals or, you know, spotify goals more or less. We set like output goals.
Nael Atweh:Okay, can we get you posting consistently? Can we challenge you with content? Can we find you the best producers, the best writers? And a lot of times, what happens to artists? They do one video that does well, they learn what works, and then it just clicks and then they just, they just, they're just, they're just like obsessed with now staying on that path because they've gotten the reward of the fans. Getting there is very difficult and I don't know it's like I have. No, I as a management company, we don't have some secret sauce to guide an artist to go viral. We actually truly rely on the artists to handle that. Our job is to motivate them, make sure they don't get down on themselves, make sure they're not like beating themselves up over it and they're staying consistent okay, now is there a.
Rob Franklin:Is there a particular formula that artists should really pay attention to as far as when to put out new material?
Nael Atweh:no okay put it out when you think it's ready, okay, but don't put it out on deaf ears, meaning like, do not just put up a song and think people are going to hear it. It's not going to happen. You need to. If I would say a basic formula for releasing a new song, let's just say we're putting out a song in four weeks from now. I would say for the next four weeks you should put up a minimum of one post on TikTok and maybe two, maybe one every single day on TikTok and maybe one every other day on Instagram until it comes out. That sounds daunting, but you should be promoting that song Now, not promoting a clip from the music video that you shot, and not promoting some fancy artwork that you created.
Nael Atweh:Nobody cares about that. People want a story, people want to feel something. So we call it in the music business, performance videos. You performing in front of your phone, in front of your camera, at a supermarket, at a store, at a grocery store, in the mall, in a parking lot, and you're filming yourself and you're shooting a portion of the song and you're singing the lyrics, or you're singing it acapella, or you're telling the story of the song, or you're sharing how you made it with a producer, or you're having a party with friends and they're reacting to it, or your parents are reacting to it. You just got to find that vein that taps into something where people resonate with it. They're like, oh my god, wow, dana put up this video of a song he's putting out next month and I really resonate with that. I can't wait. Now. You have a pre-save campaign. Now people are pre-saving the song that is coming out based off of the story that you told online. So I always tell artists just dedicate at least 15 pieces of content before the song comes out.
Nael Atweh:Try everything to get people to see it. And then make sure you're not missing out on anything. Update your socials. Stay on your Instagram. Make sure your bio's there have a contact there, you know. If you have a website, make sure it's updated. If you're not on YouTube, put up YouTube videos.
Nael Atweh:Think long form, short form story posts. Be on Twitter. You know, you know, be yourself. Act like posts. Be on twitter. You know, you know, be, be yourself. Act like a normal person. Don't make all your posts about just singing and songwriting and and art, and you got to show that you're regular and that you have a life and that you have friends, and that's what people want. They just want to find something they've never seen before, and sometimes people just want to be entertained. That's why you see someone who is a cover artist get 10 million views on a song on YouTube, but their originals have no views, and it's because they just know how to sell the cover more than anything else. And those people are listening to that cover, not because they want to discover new music. They just want to enjoy a song they love. So you've got to find what works for you, but I truly believe that there is unlimited room for new artists who are willing to put in the work.
Rob Franklin:Awesome. Wow, that is awesome, Dana. Do you have anything else for now?
Dana Franklin:I think the last question I have is you know we've always tried to, on every podcast we do, to say something that's you know, come up in our careers something that's really funny or sad that's happened to us at some point. One story that just resonates with your career is something you can laugh at, or something that was a moment where you just sat in your room and cried because something happened. Do you have something like that you can share with us?
Nael Atweh:Oh God Too many. Just sat in your room and cried because something happened. Do you do something like that you can share with us? Oh god, too many. One of the more like sad but somewhat light-hearted stories was I was managing and developing a boy band and it was called boy band project and I had so many huge opportunities for them where labels wanted to sign them, everybody wanted to work with them and I had the trust of the boys, but I didn't have the trust of the parents and the parents were helicopter parents who thought each one of their kids were better than the last kid, or better than the kid in the group, of course.
Nael Atweh:And so there was a day where I got stung by a wasp and I'm allergic to wasps and I was covered in hives from head to toe and I'm sitting in my ghetto apartment at the time, barely making $1,300 a month when I was 30 years old. So perspective for people who think you know that they're broke right now is 30 years old, barely able to pay my rent and engage to my wife. I'm sitting beside my my fiance at the time, who is now my wife, and my partner in my company, covered in hives, literally crying tears, trying to explain to these parents that I'm not screwing them over, that I'm doing what's best for their kid and that what we're doing is the right thing. But every one of them refused to trust me and they actually took my sickness that I was dealing with as a form of weakness and said, no, we don't want to work with you anymore, and tried to even file to the point of like a lawsuit and I just, I just let it go at that time because I felt that I wasn't going to devalue myself on something that is very important. So it was detrimental for my you know career at that time to give up on something that I believed in so much. But when I saw that my health wasn't a priority to them, I realized that I could only give so much to people. You know that will give it back to me when I need them the most, you know. So it was a great learning lesson on how to develop acts, how to deal with parents, how to be a tough personality.
Nael Atweh:But it was also a kind of sad moment that when you're at your worst, people who don't believe in you, people who don't trust you, won't care. They won't be concerned with your health. They'll only be concerned with what they want. And you know I wish the best, you know, for anybody who deals with that internally. But I've never seen them prove me wrong, you know. So I've never, ever seen a single person who thought you know me or anyone that was a good manager was suddenly like, oh, it ought to hurt them. And then they leave the manager and now they're killing it and they're doing well. Actually, all of those kids and all of their parents quit music and not one of them are pursuing music. Not one of them are doing anything with their careers. Are pursuing music.
Rob Franklin:Not one of them are doing anything with their careers.
Nael Atweh:So I'll always have a place in my heart for wasps, if they ever sting me or bees, if they ever sting me, because it will remind me of like that my heart is in the right place and I only need to work with people who are in line with me.
Dana Franklin:Great story, awesome All right In closing, niall.
Rob Franklin:Hey, number one, we really appreciate your time. And number two, what would be, in your opinion, best advice for a new artist going forward, wanting to get to the point of working with somebody like you.
Nael Atweh:Yeah, my advice to you is, like all artists, be yourself. Do not try to be anybody else. Stop trying to fit in with what other people are doing. Stop caring what everyone else is doing. Make music that you believe in. Be honest with the managers that you believe in. Be vulnerable, ask a lot of questions, realize that you have a lot more power than you think.
Nael Atweh:Don't be shy to reach out to people like me. Don't be shy to put yourself out there and when you meet that person, trust them, open your door to them, open your pocketbook in the sense. Don't be shy to let them into your schedule, into your personal life. If you close off to them, they'll close off to you. Managers have no time to waste. They will quickly not want to work with you if you, they feel you don't trust them. So you have to have that trust factor from day one and if you don't, then really focus on it, on it. Put the time in to trust them, go hang out with them, ask them questions, be personal, and once you trust them, everything else is easy, nothing else you need to worry about.
Nael Atweh:Just find people you trust and don't ever listen to someone who tells you not to reach out or not to try that or it's too soon, anybody who tells you that is because they themselves don't want to see you succeed. You have to do what you think is best. Listen to your gut instinct. If your gut instinct says I don't trust this person, pick up the phone, call them and give them a chance to either fix that or move on. But if you do want to give a manager a chance, the best thing you can do is give them your trust and watch what that manager will do for you. They don't care if you're making them money, but if they know you trust them, they will be your champion. They will fight for you. But if you don't trust them, they will always know in the back of their minds that you have this thing out for them, and so you will never ever get to a good place together. You'll just be judging each other on what you did or didn't do for each other.
Nael Atweh:So trust is everything. But yeah, thank you guys. I mean, what a fun chat. I love the questions. I love that you're doing this podcast. I really hope that this episode does its thing. I'll for sure promote it on my end any clips or anything you share with me, and I really do wish the best for all new artists, all new writers, all new producers. You know my name is Niall Atway. You can follow me on Instagram, you can check me out, you can email me, you can text me, you can DM me. I will respond, I will help you and hopefully, we can actually do something together.
Rob Franklin:Wow, great. All right, thank you very much, niall, and are we welcome to use your information from Grass-Fed Music on our podcast as far as links?
Nael Atweh:Please do. Okay, anything you like, welcome to use it and abuse it.
Rob Franklin:All right, niall hey, thank you. Thank you very, very much. We really really appreciate it.
Nael Atweh:Thank.
